Some of you may recall the cyber-firestorm that followed my post on Hudson, New York. To date, this post has probably received more intense flame and support than anything we've done here on E.C. Because Time Space Limited is one of the venues mentioned in my post, and because I know Linda Mussmann, its co-Founder and co-Executive Director, (and a three-time mayoral candidate in Hudson) to be a very clever, enterprising and imaginative gal, I invited her to participate in a Q&A with me about living and working as an artist and an entrepreneur in Hudson, NY.
Here's what Linda had to say in response to my questions:
You started Time & Space Limited in Manhattan (in 1973?) and then migrated two hours north in the early 1990s. I can't imagine that decision was made lightly. Can you describe what factors contributed to your decision to move:
1) out of New York City and,
2) specifically, to Hudson?
A:
Leaving NYC was about change. Change is good. The 20th century had ended in 1989.
The Berlin Wall had come down and the democracy movement was in China. I remember the tanks in Tiananmen Square and watched as people risked their lives to have freedom and change. I was born at the end of a great change. WWII had concluded and the new wave in America was part of my life. Also there had been a tornado that took our beloved family farm away and blew the place into pieces all over the surrounding land. We moved from the 19th century into the 20th century. We went from an old wooden frame farm house to a modern stone house with new conveniences and we used Fiesta ware and drove a new car. All signs of the old world were gone. The harnesses for the horses had blown away with the wind and we were propelled into a new world. This is part of my experience. I like radical change.
And in the 1990s the NEA moved into censoring artists. We were confronted with a choose between silence or cash. We refused to sign the NEA’s restrictive language in our contract with them and we lost a major part of our funding which precipitated great change for us and TSL. The censoring of artists started with the Mapplethorpe flap and grew out of control and deeply affected people like us. It is back again with the exhibit at the National Portrait Gallery in Washington, DC where the new controversy centers on “HIDE/SEEK.”
We gave back the $10,000 and decided that our NYC existence might be facing the end of a way of doing business in the arts. We had struggles with space. I had spent a lot of time fighting for our spaces in the NYC courts. Both of our spaces at 139-41 22nd Street, living and working, were challenged in the courts as illegal to occupy under the new loft law and hours of our lives were devoted to hard survival issues. In addition, the quality of life and arts were all under question. In 1983 Claudia and I had purchased a country place in Columbia County and had been using this space for a refuge. “The refuge” became more important as time passed and at the end of summer 1991 we decided not to return to Manhattan. We used the rent money to parley our hopes into a space in Hudson. And guess what? It worked. The rest is history. Here we are in Hudson, New York. It is the center. All roads lead to Hudson.
Now for a little history of the people who make TSL work and work for TSL.
Claudia Bruce was born in Tupelo, Mississippi, migrated to Cornelia, Georgia, when she was three years old. She is the daughter of an early feminist and a farmer’s son who dreamed of another kind of life and ended up building a textile business in the south after WWII. Claudia migrated to NYC seeking a life in the arts. Linda Mussmann is the daughter of three generations of German farmers who immigrated to America in the 1850s seeking freedom and land. They migrated to the Midwest and there became successful farmers. Linda migrated to the Chicago theater scene in 1968 and worked at the Hull House Theater (the former Jane Addams settlement house). She left Chicago in 1968 as the tanks were rolling into Chicago to do battle at the Democratic Convention. Following the crucial Chicago experience, with director Bob Sickinger, she finished school with a BA from Purdue University and migrated to NYC seeking alternative theater work in the style of Ellen Stewart’s, LaMama. LaMama’s important work in the 1960s influenced young theater people like us. Linda mined the New York theater scene by working in a number of spaces. Some were on the lower east side, some were on the upper west side, and some were in established places like the Museum of Modern Art and the Riverside Church.
I am a risk-taker and an entrepreneur and Claudia supports these endeavors fully. Here in Hudson, TSL has not only made an impact on the creative spirit of its immediate community but has also had an impact on the entire region and its citizens. TSL is a beacon of hope and freedom for many.
Q:
TSL is located in an awe-inspiring building on Columbia Street. Can you describe how you happened upon this great space, what it looked like when you bought it, how you set about transforming it into what it is today?
A:
Once Claudia and I decided to move out of NYC we began looking in the upstate region for a building. Hudson had a limited amount of industrial spaces. When we arrived, there were some newly abandoned churches for sale and some small storefronts and other warehouse buildings available but the building that we finally chose was the former Grossman’s Bakery located at 434 Columbia Street. This all-concrete building was built in 1929 as a bakery which served two counties (Columbia and Greene). Two brothers owned it and after WWII they decided to abandon the baking business and left the building to morph into a warehouse and a box factory The adjacent parking lot for 60 plus cars is also part of the property and holds space to serve the events that take place at TSL and to act as an outdoor gathering place for warm-weather community events.
The building sat idle for many years and when we arrived to have a look, it had been written off and neglected. Not many in the community remembered what the property had been. Hudson has a Main Street focus so anything off the beaten path seemed out of mind to many of the people then in Hudson. Many thought we had picked an abandoned and flawed property. But our hearts jumped the minute we walked into the building. We immediately knew we were home. The building was without heat, plumbing, and electricity. There were no fixtures to speak of and it was filled with stuff. It had a leaking roof and a lot of broken windows, the loading dock door was boarded up, trees hid one side of the building, and the windows in the ground floor were all bricked up. The place was just waiting for two creative people like us to make a TSL space happen. The whole building covers 120’ x 80’ with a dividing wall in the middle - plus a vacant parking lot.
After 20 years of gradual renovations, TSL now houses a 100-plus seat theater/movie space on one side of the building and an open space on the east gallery which acts as a place for assembly or a second theater. There is a gallery for art and display. The offices are located at the rear of the building on the Long Alley side. And the ground floor houses the newly-renovated TSL Youth Space, made possible with an appropriation from, then Congresswoman, Kirsten Gillibrand (now Senator Gillibrand). TSL completed most of the construction for the youth space in 2009 and now has a dedicated space for young people’s projects.
Our tour in NYC from 1969 to 1991 was dedicated to working on spaces of all kinds. I inhabited lots of abandoned lofts, churches, schools, and all kinds of alternative spaces. I saw the value in what was left behind and recycling things that were cast off is part of my history. I am the child of immigrants and farmers and Claudia comes from a long line of southern folks who built their own businesses and labored to create a new economy in the south in the textile industry.
We are working class, blue collar, kids-centric. We believe that hard work is part of creating the whole picture. When we walked into TSL Hudson we knew we had our work cut out for us and we knew it would be a long journey. The journey goes on. We started cleaning up and emptying the building so we could see its form and space. Once the form was revealed, we worked on the building one room at a time. First I built a small office. It was, literally, a little house in the middle of a big warehouse. Then we made a theater space and started inviting the banker and potential investors in order to sell the dream. This got us started with a $40,000 down payment in cash and a mortgage in quick time. Our friend, Hedwig Rappolt, put up the securities to acquire the mortgage. Then we closed the deal and began fundraising. T. Backer Fund (Judy Grunberg) started TSL off with major support, F. Murray Abraham and his wife, Kate, gave a substantial amount of money, and Mignon and Leonard Bruce provided additional funds to help with the renovation. Within a year, part of the building was up and running. Renovation has been ongoing ever since.
Q:
When you first moved to Hudson, did you know other artists there or were you the first pioneer? And how were you welcomed by city officials and informally by your direct neighbors? Was there a period of panic at any point after the move or did you always know you'd done the right thing and never look back for a moment?
A:
When we came to Hudson we knew no one. We tested our brand of theater on the community by performing new work (“M.A.C.B.E.T.H.”) at the Hudson Middle School and other work (“Silhouettes and Souvenirs”) in an historic house on Allen Street. These were site specific, mixed media projects where I surrounded the main character, played by Claudia, with local people who wanted to perform. We also worked at the RPI Eye/Ear Studio presenting another multimedia project (“Grief Has Taught Us Nothing”) that we were preparing as a radio drama for German Radio.
We used our NYC experience and work history to open doors. Ray Rinaldi, a critic at the Albany Times Union, was very impressed with our work and was key to helping get the word out about TSL in the Mid-Hudson Valley Region. Many people in the area were New York centric types who wanted the Manhattan art scene to move here. Claudia and I were interested in using that experience and creating within the community by offering a shared experience and making art based on our involvement living and working here in a community that is rural, poor, and without great access to the arts.
We began by engaging our skills to address some of the issues we encountered in Hudson. (And we continue to do a lot of things about “here.”) We did a show called “Fast Food” which was about the culture that young people experience in this community. Many kids get work at McDonalds as their first job and many consume fast food. (Eating healthy food is a struggle for some.) I interviewed teens about their experience and wrote a piece about it. We taped an entire scene in Dunkin’ Donuts and included it in the show.
We also did a show called “Tee Vee” which was based on the presence of TV in our culture. We have also used some footage taken in the local Wal-Mart store and used it as a back drop for two other pieces. We created a performance using Ibsen’s “Enemy of the People” as inspiration and reworked it to include dialogue on selling Hudson’s back-up water supply to the local gravel works. We wrote and recorded a radio project for German Radio about the “Life and Times of James Snead,” an extensive interview of our neighbor who was an African-American WWII veteran who served in the Army, survived the war and the segregated army of that time. The story tells of his life growing up in Virginia, migrating, north, and serving in the military.
We have organized and presented art exhibitions dedicated to local issues including: “Fishing,” a show about the art and culture of the Hudson River; the “Hudson Alley Project” which documented the by-ways of the City; “Save Gold’s Junkyard,” an exhibit demonstrating the value of a business whose existence provided an income for a diverse group of people and businesses; and “Why I Save What I Save” – to name a few. All of these exhibition included contributions from the local community.
Q:
You have a pretty ambitious youth program at TSL. Can you give us the basic history on how it got started and what you actually do for/with local kids? Also, do you ever hear from or keep in touch with alums of your program to track how their doing, whether some of them are being creative, etc.?
A:
TSL began youth projects early on and, due to our relationship with one young man, Matthew Thompson, who “adopted” Claudia and me in 1994, grew into many programs over the years. Matthew had a difficult time in school and struggled with a harsh father, and a mother who had left the family. Matthew became a part of our lives. He watched rehearsals, helped out at TSL, and was in our shows.
There was one piece called “My Dinner with Matthew” which offered a chance to have a live dialogue with Matthew in front of an audience. Matthew and Linda ate dinner, Claudia was the butler. This was an improvised dialogue and we heard of Matthew’s life in Hudson. Through Matthew, we learned of the struggles of young African-American kids in the Hudson School and court system. Matthew was the first of many children who have passed through the doors at TSL. In the early years, many of our neighborhood kids were poor, hungry, and bored. We became a stopover for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and for after-school programs. Over the years, we expanded the programs in our spare time. In 2000, I was given the DeWitt Clinton Award (the highest commendation for community service given to persons who are not Masons.) With the help of the Hudson Masons, TSL was able to send 8 kids to a three-week camp in the Adirondacks which was a life-changing experience for many of them.
We have created theater projects, art works, and workshops of all kinds for our youth. We have helped by being advocates for them in this community where the Hudson City School system has a history of failing too many students.
Since the opening of the TSL Youth Space in January 2009, we have run youth programs throughout the year in the ground floor space. In addition, we have a theater program that engages young people to work in the theater as activists in building a new way of working in the world. Theater and art are central to our young people’s programs. We work with the school district and various youth groups in the community to provide arts and educational opportunities to the community.
Q:
You ran for mayor. I'd imagine that just running TSL would be like a few full-time jobs. You must have been really passionate about certain issues in order to contemplate such a time-consuming thing as possibly serving as mayor of Hudson. Can you talk a bit about that? Any thoughts of another run in the future?
A:
I have run for Mayor three times. I ran for school board one time. I served as the chair of the Hudson Democratic Party and I was the chair of the Hudson Waterfront Planning Committee. I still maintain the Bottom Line which is an independent political party that continues to run people for office and advocate for specific issues. I believe that if we want a true democracy we have to work at it and believe in the power of the process. I have helped make substantial political change in our community. The process is as important as the winning. I continue to work on issues that affect our citizens.
Does it take a lot of time. Yes, it does. Time is shared by TSL and my activist work. I have fought many battles. One was helping to stop St. Lawrence Cement Plant on our waterfront. That was a long nasty battle but our side prevailed.
Now I work on social need issues. There are lot of people in our community who do not have adequate social services. I am also working on education and adequate services for the kids and families in our community.
Will I run for Mayor again? Running for Mayor is not something I am thinking about now but is always an option that is open to me. Right now I am very busy working to keep TSL a vital resource for arts and culture. Many people count on TSL to present great opportunities and we have a full plate of things to do and hopes for a positive tomorrow.
Q:
What has been most surprising about running an arts center in a small town, as opposed to a big city? What were some of your preconceived expectations and how were they either confirmed or challenged by the realities you encountered on the ground?
A:
Running an arts space in a small community is more about building a community in a multitude of different directions and being open to a quickly- and ever-changing landscape. All that we do is for change and the change we make is part of the process. If the work is important, the community will never be the same, because the work is ever evolving.
Ours is a pioneer kind of life where we are called to carve the path. This is the real avant garde work and, in reality, our stage has expanded and has become a larger platform on which to play. There are many roles that we act out and what goes on inside TSL is as important as what goes on outside. We are surrounded by malls and exist in a cultural wasteland and, on the other hand, we are surrounded by natural beauty and the Hudson River and the mountains and energetic, creative people who have worked hard and struggle to make a living. The gentry, who owns great estates, is here and there is homegrown, biodynamic food here and fine establishments that cater to the rich. Yet, we are a place with jobs that depend on prisons and on the government. Many of our youth are failing in school and our social fabric is a mixture who rarely engage in a conversation or even meet – other than in the local grocery store.
So our work at TSL is complicated. Our appeal has to reach out to a diverse population. This is hard work and not easy to write about. It is a kind of post-modern picture of a place that is like many places. We have been clever and lucky enough to crack the code and succeed.
Working in NYC was more ego-art-centric. We spent a lot of time defining the work and jockeying into a position to do the work, and fighting for a place. I spent most of my time building my work with Claudia including many hours writing, rehearsing, and preparing for shows. I miss that. Claudia is a dynamic performer and I am a very fine director. We have become a bigger show here and we are older – life is full and brimming with lots to think about.
Q:
Who has inspired you most on the local scene in Hudson since your arrival?
A:
Kirsten Gillibrand is the real deal. She has restored my faith in political leaders. And she has supported the work of TSL.
Mr. James B. Snead, our neighbor and WWII veteran. The first person to welcome us to our new space in Hudson.
Matthew Thompson, our “adopted” son, who opened our eyes to the state of education in Hudson.
Judy Grunberg, long time supporter of the arts and unwavering supporter of TSL’s dream.
Mayor Bill Allen who helped TSL navigate the legal obstacles here in Hudson so we could acquire our space on Columbia Street. The thrill was that Bill believed in TSL and our dream.
Q:
In the broadest terms, what do you think is the most easily-solved problem the Arts face in this country? In other words, if there's one thing we can each do to improve the landscape, what would that be?
A:
I think what the Metropolitan Opera has done with the HD live simulcast of the opera is a significant change which reaches out to move great work to all places. The broadcasts have made TSL a stronger place by sharing our audience with the opera-loving audience.
One simple thing the arts can do is expand art into ideas again. We have moved into Disneyland. We need real substance in culture and some real thinkers in the American scene.
Move the arts and the artists into the malls of America.
Q:
Finally, in your wildest fantasy reality, were we to stop by TSL five years from now, what new would we find that isn't there today?
A:
An endowment that would support the work of TSL.
Q:
Any final words of wisdom?
A:
Theater is the key. It is the place where we can build together. It is the place where we can make mistakes and learn to make something out of nothing. There is great pleasure in the idea of theater and it is truly transformative. This transformation is the future.
